•Priscilla Kuye Photo: Sun News Publishing

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Under the dictatorial rule of General Ibrahim Babangida and dark goggled tyrant, General Sani Abacha, Mrs Pricilla Kuye was the fire- spitting President of the prestigious and influential Nigerian Bar Association {NBA}. She fought relentlessly against all legal infractions and human rights abuse by the jackboots.

And her reward? Predictably: harassment and persecution. At one point, her international passport was seized and she was barred from attending the epochal Women Conference in Beijing in 1995. Every attempt was made to break the ranks of the NBA under her and worse still attempts were made to eliminate her. Then she literally went out of circulation.

Now minding her legal practice and chain of businesses, Kuye, who is married to Chief Omowale Kuye, former Director of Budget in the Presidency, investor and third in rank to the Olubadan of Ibadan, found time to comparatively reflect on military rule and democracy. She laments that politicians are not getting their acts right, decrying their wanton profliga

cy and “criminally” huge salaries awarded to Senators and members of the House of Representatives.
But, she submits that civil rule is preferred to the military, due to its value for freedom.
The eminent lawyer also reveals the softer side of her, how she met her husband, who is a devout Muslim while she is a Papal Medalist of the Catholic Church. She declares that their relationship is a touchstone of inter-faith marriage, advising that there should really be no room for religious bigotry and attendant sectarian conflicts so far witnessed in the country.

Excerpts:
What have you been doing since leaving the NBA presidency?
Well, I have been in private practice, I have been continuing with my legal practice. But, of course, there are other things; you know, companies, direct marketing and things like that.

Yours was a prominent voice in Nigeria during your tenure, but we have not been hearing you much. What happened?
But that was when I was the NBA president, well I believe that if you are assigned to something, you are doing it, when your time is over that is all, you know that is the way I see it. But after, I had assumed leadership in other positions. I am the President of the Nigerian-American Chamber of Commerce. Now, I am the President of the Institute of Direct Marketing , I am the current president. Of course, I have my legal practice. We have company where we are producing gas cylinders. Though, I don't think government is helping the manufacturing companies at all, they are not helping them enough, you know, with the energy problem., I know government is trying, but, they must try harder I know it is part of the seven- point agenda of the president, but, you see, power is very important for the mechanics, for the hair dressers etc.

If they said they want to reduce poverty, that is the first place to start and the manufacturers need power, you know the cost of producing cylinders now with diesel, we just cannot make it, especially, with the imported cylinders The government is not helping them, they are allowing importation on a massive scale, look at the vegetable oil, they are doing the same thing with the vegetable oil, cement etc. they have to encourage the local industry to exist, you see if we say we want to be industrialized, is that possible through importing? We must be manufacturers ourselves.

What do you think government could do?
You know I had mentioned one thing, power. They must give us energy, because the cost of diesel is so prohibitive. We spend millions of naira to buy diesel to generate electricity so that we can manufacture whatever we are manufacturing. Then of course, infrastructure, you have to have your own borehole you have to make your own route to some of the places. We are on Eji-Oku, Iwo Road, Ibadan, Oyo State, that is where our company is. So, they have to improve the infrastructure, but power is the most important thing and of course, all the taxes- but I hear now that they are reducing some of the taxes.

How will you appraise the quality of NBA leadership after your tenure?
Well it has been very good, I am happy, NBA is really growing. The leaders have been very good. We had Olisa Agbakoba and now we have Rotimi Akeredolu. I mean Rotimi is a very good man, Olisa did a lot. He rebranded the NBA you know and we have different sections in the NBA, legal practice section, public interest section, we have so many sections. Really I think they are working very hard to raise the NBA higher and I have confidence in Rotimi Akeredolu. He will be an excellent president, promoting the rule of law and the objectives of the Nigerian Bar Association.

Corruption seems to have become an issue in the judiciary, you hear stories of lawyers offering bribes to judges on behalf of clients, especially in the election petition tribunals.How do you see this and what measures would you suggest to curb the trend?
You see there is moral decadence in the society itself and we can only pray to God that God will help us, but we must start from the family to imbibe the virtues of honesty and truthfulness from the home and if we imbibe these virtues from the home, I think children will grow up with it to know that corruption is a bad thing. It is really very bad but in the judiciary well, we have one of the best judiciaries in the world maybe there is a few bad eggs as in everything. In every society you always have bad eggs, maybe in the judiciary but, you see, they have to prove, like the one in Osun State now, I read it in the papers about the telephone calls and many other things, but, it has to be proved. We have read it in the papers, those are facts they have alleged but it has not been proved.

So I want to believe those judges are innocent until they are proved guilty and the matter is before the National Judicial Council. I think it's before them and they are going to discuss it at their meeting but I don't support corruption. I think it 's an evil thing, it should be eradicated from the society. Another thing, I believe that government must pay a living wage in all the facets of our society, they must pay people a living wage so that the wage they pay them they can live on it. I think if they can live on it, there will be no room for corruption, do you understand me? I know you are talking of the judiciary, but, government must pay a living wage and you know when people are satisfied with their salaries, I don't think there will be any room for them to be corrupt because corruption really stiffle the economy. It is not a good thing at all. You know, people who are corrupt, I do not know how they live with their conscience because conscience is a very important thing. So we pray that God will help us to eradicate it, but we ourselves must start from the home. To me I will not take any bribe and I will not give any bribe. You know, it's a reorientation of the individuals and the society itself that we decide we will not take bribes and we will not give bribes.

Can you score this administration on its professed scale of adherence to the rule of law, take the case of Channels Television's closure as yardstick.
I don't think they should have suspended their licence. I do not think so, what they could have done is to go to court if they feel they have breached the law of the land. They should go to court. I don't see why they should seize their license. I mean Channels is one of the very good television stations, I like them, I like Channels, their news at ten o clock is excellent you know. They give a fair view of what is happening in the country, really fair. So, I think it was wrong, that is not promoting the rule of law, it is not promoting the rule of law at all and this is not a military government. So, I hope that this is a listening government and they have listened to the people and they have given back the licence and reopen the place. But I was reading in the papers that they want to charge them to court for one offence or the other, but, I hope they will not do that, after all Channels when they made that mistake apologized immediately and said it was not true. If it was another television may be they wouldn't even apologize, but they apologized immediately and said they were wrong. So, I don't think government should have taken this step that they have taken, it was wrong and you cannot stiffle information.

NJC toothless bull dog ?
Well, I wouldn't say that the National Judicial Commission NJC is a toothless bulldog. I don't think so. I think they have done a lot of good work in the past and they are still doing the same. Actually, the Oyo State Government has now obeyed them. At least they have obeyed their order I think maybe they like to examine all the facts. They like to be just. The Justice Olakanmi issue, it was the Oyo State Government that refused to obey what the Judicial Council directed but, now, as I said they have obeyed them. There is another acting Chief Judge, a lady now, from what I read in the papers. I think they have been doing a lot of good work and you know as a Judicial Council, they have to examine all the facts, they have to make sure they are just, natural justice is pursued, they have to listen to both sides you know.

What of a scenario in which the State Government refused to comply with that order.
Well, there are sanctions, maybe they do not want to enforce the sanctions, they do have sanctions and the Judicial Council disciplines judges. Reports are sent to them, but then, they have to investigate all things before they come to a conclusion. Like this Osun one now, I understand that they are investigating it and they have asked the judges concerned to respond to all the allegations. You know that will take time and they will discuss it at their next meeting. So, they have to make sure that they are just.
Let's talk about the softer side of yourself, can you give us your background.
Well, I am from Ogun State , I am from Ijebu. My father was a natural ruler, my mother, a teacher and a business woman

Which part of Ijebu?
Ikija Ijebu and my mother is from a royal family of Ijebu-Ife, a very popular woman, Chief Mrs. Elizabeth Adepoju very popular woman here in Ibadan . Even a street was named after her. I went to school in Ibadan . From St. James' School I went to St. Anne's school and St. Fimbers College, Ibadan and then I went abroad, to the University of London and then I came back, went to the law school I am in the 1966/67 set. I finished in 1967. When I finished, I started my law practice at an expartriate law Firm, Bulk and Companies Solicitor. We specialized in commercial law. That was where I worked for about three years and then I started my own chambers in 1970 and have been there since, practicing as a lawyer. I have other lawyers, so many other lawyers that have come to my chambers, some of them later became judges, attorneys general etc So that is what I've been doing, of course I have interest in other things.

How was growing up?
I had a happy childhood. My parents you know in those days they had a sort of university that they called Yaba Higher College . My parents both went there. That was the university of those days So, they were strict as teachers and they made us learn. You have to come first in school all the time. So, my parents were teachers until my father became a natural ruler,Alademerin and my mother went into business. I had a very happy childhood. Though my parents were very strict, they disciplined me and I am the better for it.

How did you meet your husband?
Well I met him in Ibadan here and then he was abroad …we met in Ibadan after my secondary school and then we met again in London .

How did you meet?
(Laughs), why are you asking me how we met, well, he used to come to our house actually, he used to come to our house in Ibadan yeah, I remember that.
(Cuts-in) to see you
Not to see me, to see my parents. To see my father, especially my father because my father was working at the court as a registrar and my husband was working under him so he used to come to our house, but that time, I had no time for that, I was busy with my secondary school. I think I had other boyfriends at that time. I had a particular boyfriend. Me, I never knew I would marry my husband, you understand, because me I had my own boyfriend.

Who was that former boyfriend
I don't want to tell you. {Laughs}

Is he still alive?
Yes, he is alive. He got married to somebody else, when I got married, you know God has a way of arranging his own thing. We just pray to meet the husband that God has chosen for you and then you will be happy. We have been married for 47years, 1961.

So, you met again in London
Yes and that was where it … and that was where he wrote to my parents that he would like to get married to me

How did you meet in London?
He was at the London School of Economics and I was in the university, so we were meeting at social functions.

How come you both diversify into business
You know if you are a lawyer, it trains you for so many things. Having a company like that, you may not even be a director but just put you money there, but this particular one is the one we are deeply involved in. I am the chairman. The company had been incorporated a long time ago since 70s. Well I have interest in other companies but I don't have to mention all that it is only that of gas cylinder manufacturing company that I want to mention, because I believe government could still do a lot to help manufacturers in this country.

How has it been, being married to Chief Omowale Kuye?
Well, every couple have their ups and downs, but he is a very good man, very good husband to me and I like men who support their wives and they want their wives to realize their potentials. He is that sort of man. He believes every human being should realize his or her own potentials. So, he supports me in everything I do and another thing, even though his parents are Christians, my husband is a Muslim and I am a Catholic. I am a papal medalist of the Catholic Church. I don't know why people quarrel about religion, because religion is in the mind. It is in the mind and we just have to respect other people's religion.. It is the same one God we are all worshipping. It's the same God, the same Almighty God. So, when I hear people quarreling about religion, I just laugh, it isn't worth it.

Did he convert from Christianity to Islam?
Yes, but his parents were Christians before they died. They belonged to the Salvation Army group, mama was mama ijo and baba was baba ijo.

Was that after you got married?
Eh, it was before now, it was before.

And you did not have any problem coming from a Christian background, you had no problem agreeing to marry him?
You see, it is the qualities of the man you are interested in, his qualities, you know whether this man is a trustworthy man, whether he will be kind, whether he'll be loving husband, a trustworthy husband; religion is important, I do not say it is not important because I will not like to marry a man who is a godless man, a man who doesn't worship God, because the worship of God is the basis of everything. You must worship God and acknowledge God in whatever you do. So, my husband is a very religious person. In fact he just came back from Umrah. Me too, I have been on my own pilgrimage. I am a Jerusalem pilgrim and I like to go to Louise every year too.

How do you cope as a married person and a career person?
Well, you have to organize your time. I believe in organizing the time, if you organize your time there will be no problem, because you have to make sure that your home does not suffer, your children must not suffer, your husband must not suffer. It is difficult though, but because I do my own work, you know I do not have to report somewhere eight to three. If you have your own work as a professional it's a bit easier, but if you have to do a job eight to three or eight to five then that might be a little difficult. I prioritize, sometimes I don't go to parties if I have other things to do, so once you organize youR time well, I believe the children especially when they are young, they must not suffer. You must bring them up well and you must not allow your husband to suffer.

Do you cook for him?
Yes, of course I cook for him.I enjoy cooking o, if I am a woman who does not enjoy cooking that is another thing, but I have always enjoyed cooking.

What are his favourite food?
I am not telling you. (Laughs) you know any Ibadan man will like Amala and Gbegiri with bush meat.
Let me take you back to 1997, you hosted on this grounds, a send forth party for United States Ambassador Walter Carrington when the nation was still under the dictatorship of Gen Sani Abacha. That event was widely reported in the newspapers. Many believed you took a great risk hosting somebody who was very critical of the regime then, what made you do it.
You know that sometimes you just meet some people and you like them and they like you. I think I was the President, Nigeria - America chamber of Commerce and, of course, I was interacting with the American Embassy and we met. You know they used to invite us to their parties, you just take a likeness to some people and something clicked, it started from my husband, they like each other so much, so they used to invite us to virtually all their parties and he got married to Arese. In fact, they came recently, we saw them, my husband went to lunch with them in Abuja . When we go to America too they take us out, we see them so they just like each other and we felt why should n't we hold a party for them. They are our friends and if they are our friends why can't we hold parties that was why we held the party. We knew it was risky.

Was there any threat from the security agencies at the time?
Yes, there was at that time, but you know my husband, he could be stubborn at times. He felt that why should they ask him not to give a party, in fact they told him not to hold the party but we decided we were going to hold the party and well it is our home and why shouldn't we do what we liked, the only thing they could do was arrest us that's what they could do but they didn't.
You know after 1992 when they tried to mess up the NBA, there was a sort of lawlessness because the government told us not to hold any meeting, not to gather you know at that time I tried to organize meetings to revive the Nigeria Bar Association but the military were always dispersing us when we meet, threatening us - that was IBB regime of course. Well we are still friends with them o, we are still friends with Ambassador Carrington and his wife Arese, we are still very friendly with them.

By the grace of God you are a successful woman by all standards, what would you give as advice to young women that are coming up?
I will say they should work very hard. If they believe in anything they have to work hard at it and pray that God should bless all their efforts. I think it is very important. Don't say that because I am woman you will get promotions, work hard at what you believe in and pray that God should bless all your effort, that is very, very important and you must aim high and have a specific objective. What do I want in life, I think it is important to have a focus.

Between democracy and military rule
Well we have a civilian government now but I think we still have a lot of hard workto do. Look at the economy, the economy to me is not good because many people are saying that they are hungry. Look at the price of a bag of rice. The local rice is about N13,000 per bag and the imported one about N8,000 per bag. I mean, I think it is exorbitant. Even the local food stuffs are very expensive Garri, Elubo and all that, very very expensive and as I said before, the government must make sure that if they want us to be industrialized they must encourage local manufacturers and the Chambers of commerce has been saying this, NACCIMA has been saying this, they are not encouraging the local manufacturers. No country can ever industrialize unless people manufacture goods.

It is not through importing and exporting that we are going to become an industrialized nation. Look we don't have a steel factory. So, they must have a good steel factory to be able to supply the local manufacturers and then power, I said, infrastructure, the taxes, they must promote the rule of law as well, respect court judgment. They must respect what the court says because if we want peace in our country and orderly government and you want the people to promote and respect the rule of law. The government too must promote and respect the rule of law.

Are the politicians getting it right?
Look there can be improvement in all facets of life. I think the politicians should work for the common good of Nigerians because we should not have expensive foods, why should we have bad roads, really bad roads. The federal roads are bad, we do not have good railway system that can ease things. I know some of the governors are trying, like the governor of Lagos State , Governor Fashola is really trying, Bukola Saraki in Ilorin , they are really trying to improve the quality of lives of their people. One complaint that I have is the salaries that are being paid to our people in the Senate and House of Representatives I think the salaries are just out of this world. It was from your Sun newspaper that I read it.

The paper said the budget was three point something trillion and that the salaries of the House of Representatives and the senators was about one point six trillion or something like that. I saw it in your paper because I read The Sun. You know that sort of thing when the average man is earning N15,000, how come theirs is so high even it is more than the judges' salaries. I think it is too much, it is too much. So our senators and the house of reps people should work for the common good. Do things that will improve the quality of lives of Nigerians. Provide us with constant supply of electricity, water because many places there is no water, cheap food, fairly good roads, hospitals, good education for our children, maternal care, these are the things that improve the quality of life and this is what the two houses should be doing.

But is it not better than military rule?
Ah it is better. We have freedom, nobody is going to lock you up for talking. I think what happened to Channels is an exception to the rule but it is better to have freedom. Democracy is better than any military form of government. Give me democracy anytime, at least I am talking now and I know nobody will arrest me. That time, they seized my passport, I couldn't go for the Women's Conference in Beijing , my passport was seized, I have to be going to the SSS all because I am NBA president and then, they tried to kill me, all because I am NBA president, why. So, that was a military government, it can never happen during a democracy, so freedom is very, very important.