When I first discussed 2007 with Obasanjo...
... he banged the table and vowed that i must succeed him
By
Sun News Publishing
Monday, May 29, 2006
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Atiku
Photo: Sun News Publishing |
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It was a chronicle of some sort last Tuesday evening in
Abuja as Vice President Atiku Abubakar spoke to a team of
journalists, including senior editors of The Sun Newspapers.
The vice president went down memory lane to the first time
he ever broached the issue of succession with President Olusegun
Obasanjo, and the president banged the table.
“I walked up to him, either in 2000 or 2001,”
recounts Atiku. “I said, look, Mr President, I did not
plan to be a vice president, all I wanted was to be a governor,
and now I’m vice president, my feeling is that after
two terms, we should all go.
And he banged the table and said, look, don’t tell me
that. I made a mistake in 1979 because I handed over to somebody
who was not part of the administration, who did not know our
vision, who did not know our programmes, and at the end of
the day, when I came back 20 years later, I found some of
the things I started still on the ground. I believe that after
I finish my two terms, you should be able to continue so that
you can consolidate what we have done, and I believe after
16 years, it will be impossible to reverse the march, we would
have gone very far.”
And on the infamous third term gambit, meant to elongate President
Obasanjo’s tenure before it was shot down by the National
Assembly, Atiku said he knew of the plot in 2003, the same
year The Sun broke it to the Nigerian nation.
Said Atiku: “I knew of third term three years ago. Yes,
three years ago…I told them I’m not for this,
and I will fight it.”
In the very frank interview, Vice President Atiku Abubakar
bared his mind to MIKE AWOYINFA (Managing
Director/Editor-in-Chief) DIMGBA IGWE (Deputy
Managing Director/Deputy Editor-in-Chief) FEMI ADESINA
(Editor, Daily Sun) and ERIC OSAGIE (Editor,
Northern Operations).
It’s a special Democracy day package
Now that the National Assembly has thrown out
the constitution amendment bill, we wonder what your relationship
with the president is?
My relationship with the president remains cordial. We have
a cordial working relationship.
Well, what we saw outside wasn’t cordial
at all. What we saw was a lot of heat. Are things going to
be better or we’ll have more heat?
I don’t know the heat you are talking about. I didn’t
feel any heat outside anyway.
What are the things that have been left undone
by the Obasanjo administration that you will correct if you
become president.
You see, this administration has done a great job, and governance
is a continuous process. There is no particular government
that finishes governance, it’s always a continuous thing.
I believe in the programmes we have implemented so far, I
believe we need to sustain them, build upon them. So, I think
the fear of reversal of policies does not arise as far as
I’m concerned.
Are you offering anything new apart from what’s
on the ground?
Certainly, you’ve got to offer something new. Of course,
I will unveil that in my formal declaration.
There’s nothing wrong in aspiring to be better than
Obasanjo. Do you think you’ll be a better president?
It’s up to Nigerians to judge. It’s a matter for
history. It will depend on your performance, and will be left
for Nigerians to decide whether one administration has performed
better than the other. Everybody looks at a different perspective
of an administration. Somebody who is in say industry or manufacturing,
if he does better in a particular administration, he will
say it was the best. Somebody else in another sector of the
economy, either in telecoms, or a trader, if he does better,
he looks at the administration from his own perspective. But
I think it’s for Nigerians to judge.
What could have happened if the third term thing had succeeded?
What would have happened was that elections would still have
to hold, and Nigerians would have the opportunity to elect
a president, there would not have been only one presidential
candidate because we have as many as 30 parties, if not more.
Therefore, these parties would field candidates and Nigerians
will have to elect their president.
You say the relationship between you and your
boss is cordial. But the president came out late last year
to say you were not loyal to him. Is there really anything
you and the president would not want the country to know?
I think we have overflogged this issue. It’s a dead
issue as far as I’m concerned.
Is there a truce now?
Was there a fight? (laughs) We are human beings. Don’t
you disagree with your wives? And don’t you settle your
disagreements? So, if the president and I disagree on an issue,
that does not mean the end of the day. I don’t want
you to blow it out of proportion.
I asked this question because at the last Federal
Executive Council (FEC) meeting, it was said you greeted the
president twice and he did not acknowledge it.
I did not notice that. Maybe you noticed because you are a
journalist.
And when he invited you for lunch, you said you
were fasting.
Yes, I was fasting. We even cracked jokes. He said should
he follow me to fast, and I said how can you follow when I
just saw you eating. You better go back to your food, while
I go back to my office (laughter).
Sir, can you match the vigour and vision of President
Obasanjo?
What do you mean by vigour and vision. This vision is a joint
vision. It’s not just one person’s vision. Government
is run as a group. Yes, he’s the president, eventually
he takes credit for everything, but it’s a collective
thing.
What are the areas you think your administration
has done excellently well, and what are the areas you have
not done well?
I believe most importantly, stabilising the polity is one
thing we have achieved. You must also remember that in the
history of this country, this is the longest democracy we
have ever had. That alone is an achievement. You have to give
credit to the National Assembly, you have to give credit to
the presidency, the judiciary, all Nigerians, for supporting
and allowing democracy to last this long. It’s the longest
democratic governance we have got in this country. That alone
is an achievement. We also have other areas we have done very
well. The economic sector, we have made significant improvement
as far as the macro-economic indices are concerned. We have
stabilised inflation, exchange rate, we have built up a healthy
external reserve. You may say yes, there was increase in the
price of oil, but we could have also blown it: I think these
are all achievements.
I think in the next phase of this administration, we have
to be able to translate the macro-economic improvement we
have achieved into a micro. That is, to make sure that it
impacts positively on the lives of the ordinary Nigerian in
terms of his standard of living. I think that is a very important
challenge.
Is that why you are planning to retain the economic team if
elected?
I don’t know from where you got that. I believe Nigeria
has tremendous manpower available inside and outside the country.
Yes, the economic team has done very well, and we can continue
with policies and institutions, but that is not to say there
are no other people who can do the job.
In all honesty, did you think President Obasanjo
wanted to continue?
I don’t know how to be dishonest in my remarks (laughs)
Please read the remarks I made on April 5, this year. Go back
to your library and read them up.
As things stand now, are you saying you can emerge as
presidential candidate on the platform of the PDP?
Why not?
But you say the party has been hijacked.
So what? If it has been hijacked, so what? I said it was hijacked
to achieve a purpose, and the purpose is no longer there.
You must not forget we are going to have nearly 5,000 to 6,000
delegates at the convention. And some of them are not even
elected yet.
Do you think you’ll be president without the support
of President Obasanjo?
I think the important thing in an election is the support
of the generality of Nigerians. Even incumbents have lost
elections before. We have had incumbents who lost elections
in this continent. For a sophisticated country like Nigeria,
the last constitutional debate has strengthened my faith in
this country more than ever before. I believe the most important
factor in an election are Nigerians.
Do you think Nigerians have had a fair deal from this
government, particularly from policies like privatisation?
The privatisation policy has gone very well as far as I’m
concerned. Yes, NITEL is still in trouble, but it is just
one enterprise among the several we have privatised. Of course,
it’s a big enterprise.
Some people believe some of the enterprises were sold to your
friends
I believe it’s been transparent. It’s really been
transparent. I don’t believe it’s been skewed
at any point in time to favour any so-called friend of this
government.
It is said some of your business fronts bought
some of the enterprises?
Well, name them
Sadiq Oil
Sadiq Oil has been divested. The Federal Government has taken
away the shares from Sadiq Oil. But who is my friend in Sadiq
Oil?
What about Pentascope?
I don’t know anything about Pentascope. I don’t
think I ever met anybody from Pentascope from the beginning
to the end.
The president’s son, Gbenga, was reported
to have indicted you on that matter
Let him prove it, if he has evidence, let him prove it. We
are prepared to subject ourselves to public scrutiny.
Those who hijacked the PDP are waving the olive branch. What
are your terms for reconciliation?
I’ve not been contacted yet. If I’m contacted,
I will respond. But it’s a welcome development.
What are your terms for reconciliation?
Why would I tell you domestic issues between me and my party,
when I’ve not even been contacted?
On the day the president accepted that the third
term agenda was dead and that there should be reconciliation,
what was your feeling?
As far as I’m concerned, I felt it was a welcome development.
We will see how it is actually handled, but the most important
observation I want to make on that is that they say a reconciliation
committee has been set up. But if you are saying some particular
people have no mandate, and the same people are made to reconcile
the groups, I don’t think that will bring about the
kind of reconciliation we desire.
What will you really like to see?
I thought they could rely on members of the board of trustees
to undertake the reconciliation. But bringing in either members
of national or state executives, whose mandates are being
questioned by other members of the party, I think is a faulty
start.
It is believed that you have made plans for an
alternative platform
I’m a politician, I have friends virtually across all
parties. And remember I’ve been in politics for almost
20 years. And in those 20 years, we have interacted with all
the individuals in one party or the other. Many occasions,
we have been in one party, we found ourselves separated again.
I admit I have friends in all these parties – AD, ANPP,
APGA – I have friends in them. With my friends in other
parties, I got this president elected in 1999, because I remember
an occasion where he called on the governors of ANPP, and
asked for their support. And they told him, as long as you
are with Turaki Atiku, we’ll give you our support, and
we don’t even need anything from you, because he’s
our political associate.
Did you get the president elected in 1999, or
the president did you a favour by choosing you as running
mate?
We did each other favour. Everybody brought something on the
ticket.
In 2003, you also played a role in the president’s re-election.
Did you have any regrets after things fell apart?
In life, you go through a lot of experiences. But every experience
you go through is a lesson. Whether it is negative or positive,
you gain something out of it.
What are some of the lessons you’ve learnt?
It enriches your experience. You become more experienced
Does the president want you to succeed him?
At a point in time, yes. I remember during the first term,
if there was anybody who prompted me actually to be interested
in the presidency, it was the president himself. I walked
up to him either in 2000 or 2001, and said, look Mr. President,
I did not plan to be a vice president, all I wanted was to
be a governor, and now I’m vice president, my feeling
is that after two terms, we should all go. And he banged the
table and said, look, don’t tell me that. I made a mistake
in 1979 because I handed over to somebody who was not part
of the administration, who did not know our vision, who did
not know our programmes, and at the end of the day, when I
came back 20 years later, I found some of the things I started
still on the ground. I believe that after I finish my two
terms, you should be able to continue so that you can consolidate
what we have done, and I believe after 16 years, it will be
impossible to reverse the march, we would have gone very far.
That was the beginning of my actually being interested in
the presidency. And at a point in time, when we had misunderstandings
and senior members of the administration brought us together
to resolve the issues, I asked him the same question, Mr President,
have you changed your mind about what you told me, he said
no. I then asked, what’s all this problem about?
At what point did something go wrong in a relationship that
was so cordial?
You know, relationship can go wrong at several points. Disagreements
can occur. Of course, I disagreed with the president on the
issue of constitutional amendment. It’s a mere political
disagreement. I had cause to disagree with him on how elections
into the national executive of the party will be conducted.
I remember that day, I said even if you wanted us to elect
these people, we should go for elections as provided by the
constitution of the party. Let Nigerians see us going to vote
for Ahmadu Ali, for Ojo Maduekwe, and the rest. And he said
Mr. Vice President, there are different forms of election.
It can be by acclamation, or by affirmation. And that was
the end of it. Of course, some aggrieved members of the party
went to court, and the court gave judgment against the decision
of the party, which again the party did not obey.
These are disagreements and you could resolve them at any
point in time if people realised that they have made mistakes.
But if they don’t realise they have made mistake, it’s
too bad, unfortunate.
Apart from political disagreements, were there
also policy disagreements?
No, we had no policy disagreements
Are there things you consider obstacles in your bid for the
presidency?
Obstacles are meant to be surmounted. In life, if you say
you don’t want to encounter obstacles, I’m very
sorry for you, you must be a lazy person.
You have a formidable opposition
I have always had very, very formidable opposition in my life.
From childhood to where I am. And God has always helped me
to overcome these obstacles.
Is Babangida a threat?
Nobody is a threat to my presidency
How about the president himself!
I said nobody is a threat to my presidency. Only Nigerians
and God.
Can Babangida beat you in an election that is free and fair?
There is nobody who is a threat. Whether Babangida would beat
me or anybody else would beat me depends on Nigerians.
There is a great deal of fear that you cannot
get a proper election in this country. The electoral law,
for instance, is not there.
We are trying to make sure we get a proper election. We should
be improving from one election to the other.
What are the kind of things you’ll like
to see. As it is, the Electoral Act has not been passed.
Actually, the Electoral Act has been passed. I think the houses
are trying to harmonise their positions on that. We would
have prefered to see a more independent electoral body in
terms of composition, powers and appointment. For instance,
I would have prefered to see an electoral body which has representatives,
appointed by government, but also representatives of the major
political parties, the NGOs, and other interest groups so
that they can serve on the commission.
I would have prefered to see an electoral commission that
is independent in terms of its funding. If you strengthen
that institution, you would also help to sustain democracy
in this country. These are some of the things I would have
prefered to see.
It is alleged that some political jobbers created
a wedge between you and the president
Well, we always have this kind of people. It is up to those
involved to ensure that they do not come in to strain relationships.
Did you identify them, and who are they?
No, I did not identify anybody (laughs)
Prior to the 2003 elections, majority of the PDP governors
were with you. Now, you are saying some of them are traitors
No, I don’t want you to take that comment out of context.
I made it when a delegation paid me a visit from Taraba. They
complained about misgovernance, and I thought Jolly Nyame
had enough time to transform that state. It was in that context
that I said I was disappointed and regretted backing him.
Are there other governors like that?
I wouldn’t know. It was not until I had audience with
this delegation from Taraba, and they consisted of very prominent
people whom I did not expect would tell a lie against the
governor. And that was my reaction.
Is it true that you sold the Mandela option to Mr
President before 2003?
I never had anything to do with Mandela option. That was a
creation I didn’t know of who. God knows that I did
not propose Mandela option for anybody.
You have been described as a master strategist.
So, how did you mastermind the rigging of the 2003 election?
I don’t think it’s a fair thing to say that I
masterminded the rigging of the election. I did not conduct
that election, it was conducted by INEC, and I’m just
one individual. I was in my home state in Adamawa, so how
could I have masterminded the so-called rigging. Was I in
Rivers? There was rigging in Rivers.
Did I rig there?
What do you make of the argument that power should shift to
the South-south for equity and justice?
All I know is that the PDP took a decision at an enlarged
caucus in November 2002, that power should rotate between
the North and South. That is the decision of the PDP till
today. We wait until they change it.
But do you think power would shift to the North?
It’s a party decision, and there were those of us who
founded this party, and the issue of rotation of power between
North and South actually started in the 1994/1995 constitutional
conference, where I was a member. That was where the idea
was first mooted. Eventually, those of us in that conference
came to be some of the founding fathers of the PDP, and we
also entrenched that in our constitution. Power rotation and
power shift, that is what is in the PDP constitution. We still
believe in that, and by the time every geo-political zone
would have produced the president, the thing can be thrown
open.
If the PDP decides tomorrow that the presidency
should go to the South-south, will you sacrifice your ambition?
I will wait until that decision is taken
What was the real story behind the removal of your aides by
the president?
Believe me, perhaps only the president can answer this question.
I would not know, all I know is that the president called
me and said, I’ve fired this, I’ve fired that,
I’ve fired that (laughs). I said you are the president,
you can fire anybody you want to fire, the only person you
can’t fire is myself.
You were satisfied with the services of the people
fired?
Very much so
But, it is said some of them were planting stories
in the media against the government you serve
I was not aware of that
Most of your associates have left the PDP. You are still there.
Is it so that you can play a spoiler?
No, I’m never a spoiler
As the chief financier of the ACD…
I’m not. There are so many wealthy people in ACD
What are you still doing in PDP when your associates are not
there?
But I still have associates in PDP. Very many. I have associates
in PDP.
Do you regret not contesting against Obasanjo in 2003?
No regret absolutely. I did that in the best interest of the
country. What was uppermost in my mind was national stability,
national unity. We are moving towards the right direction.
How do you see Gov Orji Kalu’s opposition to
third term?
Of course, he’s a hero
After your outburst of April 5, how did the president react?
Did he ever ask you?
No. We haven’t discussed it.
Is that not rather curious?
Very curious (laughs)
But in the letter you wrote to him, he replied that
he will go by the decision of the party
He is the president, what do you expect him to say? He should
be seen to be neutral. Just as he said he was neutral during
the debate on constitution amendment (laughs)
Outgoing presidents usually support their deputies for the
race. We saw Bill Clinton doing that to Al Gore.
Wait till I get the nomination of the party. And we’ll
see whether he will not present me to Nigerians.
Some of the president’s associates have claimed that
if you become president, you will squander all the resources
saved over the years. Implied in that insinuation is that
you are corrupt; and it’s a very widespread allegation.
It’s propaganda, a very negative propaganda for that
matter. Secondly, spending government’s funds has a
process. You just don’t dip your hands in government
treasury and bring out money. And fortunately, this administration
has really worked hard in institutionalising those processes.
So, I do not see how I can squander this nation’s wealth
just by dipping my hand into the treasury and taking money.
I have challenged anybody who has anything on corruption allegations
against me to come out and face me with it. And up till now,
nobody has done so, either in the administration or outside.
So, as far as I’m concerned, this question of corruption
is a well packaged propaganda just to smear my image.
Because I’d been a successful businessman before coming
into government, should that make me corrupt? And in this
government as a vice president, I don’t have a vote.
Even a minister has more power to spend money than I do. A
minister can give contract up to N50 million, I cannot give
contract even up to N1 million because I don’t have
a vote. My vote is being controlled by the president, so how
do I steal the money?
Were you ever frustrated?
Definitely, I have gone through quite a lot of things, but
I don’t allow frustrations or obstacles to determine
my objectives.
These men with military background angling for power
again, is it a minus or a plus?
I don’t want to talk on the military. It will be unfair
to brand a whole group of people. But I think Nigeria’s
experience in military governance has not been the best.
Your associates that crossed carpet during the third
term bid, if they come back, how will you react?
They are just mere political differences. They can always
be resolved. One good thing about political differences is
that they are sometimes the most easy to resolve.
But it is more of betrayal
Even socially, you must have had friends before, and you fell
out. It happens. Even maritally, you marry a woman, you divorce
her, so that’s it.
If the president had come out before the debate to
say he was not for third term, do you think that would have
lifted him in the history books?
In fact, he would have really acted to the expectation of
most Nigerians and international observers of Nigeria. I was
almost bleeding in my heart because I never thought that this
president, whom I have elevated to the highest level in this
country, would be deceived into this kind of contraption.
Believe me, it’s sad what human beings can do to others
When Mandela was warning that Obasanjo should beware of third
term, and Daily Sun carried the story, did you think we were
just making noise?
I knew of third term three years ago. Yes, three years ago.
When the president called me in the morning, and said I’m
sending Prof Jerry Gana and Kanu Agabi to you to discuss constitutional
amendment with you. They came, and it took us two hours to
go through the amendments, and here was the issue of third
term in it. I told them, I’m not for this, and I will
fight it, take the message back to the president.
There is the perception that after the issue of third
term, Nigerians will never trust leadership again.
I think leadership will have to rebuild confidence in Nigerians.
This takes time, but it can be done. Subsequent leadership
will have to reassure Nigerians that when they say something,
they mean it.
Is the danger of third term clearly over?
I don’t think so. We must be very watchful.
What are the danger signals you see?
We must make sure we have a credible transition, one that
is not made to falter. We must get the National Assembly to
come out with the new Electoral Act immediately. And we must
also make sure that INEC clearly has the capacity to conduct
the transition programme so that it is not used to sabotage
the transition.
When the president said he was ready to die for Nigeria, how
did you interpret it?
I don’t know about this ready to die. I don’t
know whether it means a higher sense of patriotism, but I
think I want to live to serve this country (general laughter).
When he said God’s business must not be left unfinished,
how did you interpret that?
I really don’t understand that. Maybe you need to ask
him what he meant by it. You know that God sent prophets,
and there was none who accomplished all what he came to do.
Disciples continued after them. Even Methuselah did not complete
what he came to do (laughs).
So, how do you think history will remember Obasanjo, particularly
in the last part of his term?
Let’s leave that to history.
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