•There’s hope of PDP, SPD, others forming coalition against APC

Former Chairman, Caretaker Committee of the Peoples Democratic Party, PDP, Alhaji Ahmed Mohammed Makarfi has risen in stout defence of his party, saying the recent apology to Nigerians and plea for forgiveness by the National Chairman of the PDP, Uche Secondus was not on corruption but on the impunity it exhibited by taking Nigerians for granted while in power.

In this interview he granted Saturday Sun in Kaduna, Makarfi spoke on the APC government and concluded that the game was over for President Buhari and the APC. He described former Minister and one of the current promoters of SDP, Professor Jerry Gana as a political liability. He spoke on other national issues in this interview conducted by KENNY ASHAKA.

Let’s start with the accusation of your party of having looted the nation’s treasury. As a matter of fact and public knowledge today, a number of your members, including the current Chairman of your party have been mentioned by Alhaji Lai Mohammed as those who allegedly looted the treasury. What’s your reaction?

My party, the PDP has appropriately reacted to that. They have published many names, may be over 30 or thereabout. I haven’t counted. The list of names it published looks many to me. So, compare that list published by my party, only five or six members of my party members that Lai Mohammed mentioned. And some other people have reacted, not just politicians. We should safeguard our system to make sure it works well. When we accuse someone and charge him to court, the person is undergoing trial, the court has not found the person guilty yet and you publicly labeled somebody the way he labeled individuals. To my mind it is disrespectful to the judiciary. It is subjudice and indirectly trying to interfere with the case before the court. This is even sufficient enough to throw the case out. We should stop politicizing the issue of corruption. My party made a statement sometime ago that we are against corruption, but they should not politicize it. I think all politicians, irrespective of political party and indeed all Nigerians should sign unto “No More Corruption”.

If you want to trace the history of corruption you will have to get to the First Republic. But corruption then was not at the particular level it is today. What is bad is bad, no matter how little it was. So we should all, irrespective of political party say no to certain traits in our society and fight it together. It is then that it would have the chance of succeeding. But when we politicize it, it would never succeed. If that happens, it would continue to eat away the system. And if you say you are in government and are covered to be corrupt, then people will now all move in to government so that they can have cover to be corrupt. And people will do anything to remain in government so that they are so covered and they won’t be called corrupt persons because it looks like it is only people outside government that are labeled as corrupt or even tried. If you are within the government, no matter the report that is out against you it is just to play around with it, believing that Nigerians will just play around with it and it will come to pass.

I want you to be very certain now and not to be vague about this issue of corruption. Do you think this government is fighting corruption, sincerely speaking?

That is what I am saying, that it has been politicized. When you politicize an important issue as the fight against corruption, you cannot succeed. So they are not fighting it because it has been politicized. And many powerful forces within the government, even if not as a government policy per se, but because this is a government that has no coordination, no central authority, everybody with his or her sphere of influence gets into the system, uses the war against corruption by pushing institutions that are supposed to serve all of us to do dirty political fight for them. And we will never succeed. It will become worse.

You say it will not succeed, but fighting corruption is one area those in government and APC are claiming to have succeeded. So is it a matter of conjecture?

Ask Nigerians; they are the ultimate judge. As far as I know it is not succeeding and ask Nigerians they will tell you it is not succeeding because of the politicization of the fight against corruption. Let me remind you; as our national chairman mentioned, the EFCC, ICPC were set up by the PDP government. No government has improved on the legislation that created them. So you cannot say that PDP as a party has a principle of condoning corruption. That is not to say that you cannot find individuals who are members of PDP who are corrupt. That is also not to say that there are no members of the APC that are corrupt. But if the principle is that when you are out of power that the system zooms on you to classify you as corrupt or not for political purposes, it is a de-service to the country and it will not lead to a successful fight against corruption.

Recently, the national leader of the APC, Asiwaju Bola Tinubu asked Nigerians to reject the apology tendered to them by your party. I know that your party has reacted, but as a former leader of the party that has brought a new visage for the party, you must be bothered about certain statements from some politicians. How do you feel about that statement?

Let me be very clear here. PDP did not apologize on the issue of corruption. The national chairman was specific when he said the issue of impunity exhibited in taking Nigerians for granted. He did not say he was apologizing for corruption. Corruption is on the basis of individuals and you can find corrupt individuals in all parties. But this is a matter for the courts to decide if you properly try them.

You have just said the apology to Nigerians by your party is on impunity. But some Nigerians would say even after what some of your members refer to as a rebranded PDP, your recent convention was fraught with accusations that bordered on impunity.

No, the convention was not characterized by impunity. First of all, in the aborted May convention, the PDP printed only one form for each office that was to be contested…

(Cuts in) No, I am talking of this last convention.

I am coming. I am trying to show you how there was no impunity. In the convention of December which we had, there were forms available to anybody interested in contesting election into offices of the PDP.

People talked about a list, but there were two lists. It is just like an election in NUJ. You have groups. One group will have the list of their favoured contestants and would go and campaign. The other group will do the same. Then the group that wins because they were able to convince majority will now be accused of making a list. But you that lost why did you make a list? That was what happened at the convention. There were two lists of groups of like minds, each one campaigning and one triumphed over the other. And because one group triumphed over the other why should the other group complain? This happens in every trade union and other associations when you see people contesting elections. A number of people come together and they campaign believing that what rubs on you can also rub on me, let’s pull our resources together. You find this kind of thing anywhere election is being held. Is that what is impunity? No.

Now that you have apologized, has your party any machinery in place to stop a repeat of the impunity?

First of all, let me bring you to the situation in Kaduna. They just concluded primaries for local government election. Did you hear of any uproar when PDP conducted its own? In the APC primaries there were deaths, people were cut with machete and killed. All the uproars about malpractices were in APC that people were prevented from voting. That is to show you that now in the PDP we are allowing party men and women to freely choose who their candidates would be. And the mistakes we made in the past are what APC has started doing. I have just given you an example of what has happened a few weeks ago in Kaduna to show you that there is no more impunity in PDP. It’s like those abandoning allegiance to your party by way of moving from PDP to APC are more than those from APC to PDP. When you take a look at the movement of Professors Jerry Gana and Tunde Adeniran to the SDP, which some Nigerians are describing as the third force…

(Cuts in) First of all, SDP is not the third force…

(Cuts in) Okay, let’s even agree it is not the third force, are you not bothered?

That’s what I am trying to tell you. Secondly, even before the Supreme Court judgement…because as Chairman, Caretaker Committee I gave Jerry Gana a lot of responsibilities because of the trust and confidence in him. In one of the reports he officially submitted to me, he said we should all move and take over SDP.

That was before the Supreme Court judgement

No, even the Supreme Court judgement.  I am telling you what people do not know. Even the first Supreme Court judgement, to him that was something, in my opinion he wanted.

You should expect that before the Supreme Court judgement because you were not too sure of

If you had a mind set the possibility is that irrespective of what happens you may follow your mind. So it was not something basically new. I respect him. I still do. But I think it is a classical error and mistake because go to where he comes from; who has followed him to SDP? If he is talking within the context of  Middle Belt and North Central colouration, who and who has followed him to SDP? It’s a major mistake. But I tell you and assure you PDP and SDP as political parties have been working together. I still cannot rule out the possibility of PDP and SDP working together.

Have they worked together?

Of course; that is where the allegation of Chief Olu Falae collecting money for the party to campaign for Jonathan came from. So we are still working together and I am not ruling out PDP, SDP and other parties working together.

This arrangement of a merger between PDP and other political parties seems to have no end. We still have not heard of any strong alliance, coalition or merger between PDP and other parties. What is going on?

Merger is a technical issue that…except if we simplify it by legislation. This government the way they work, if you play into their hands they will extinguish you because before you merge you have to dissolve as a political party and surrender your licenses. If you do that and government interferes with INEC and they don’t approve for you, even if you go to court it will take a long time. By that time maybe the elections are over. So you have to look at the kind of government you are having. If you are having an open, democratic government that does not interfere you can consider a lot of things. But when you are dealing with a set of people that are very vicious the way they approach things you have to be very careful what you adopt to the play towards 2019 otherwise you will fall into a trap and you may not be able to come out of it.

The tempo of activities in your party, the PDP appears to have slowed down to the extent that the APC is having a field day warming their way back into the minds of Nigerians…

(Cuts in) We may not be as active as expected, but that is why the national chairman convened the first expanded caucus and reeled out what is to be done. That is why we have started series of rallies which is supposed to cover each state of the federation. We had one in Jigawa State; we are going to have one in Lagos. Other states are being asked to choose a date. But Kenny, look at also the circumstances under which we are operating, where APC controlled states deny PDP public facilities to even meet.

Where?

In Kano, military and police were sent to dismantle the canopies we put and the rally aborted.

This is a very serious allegation against the ruling party and I will like you to buttress this…

(Cuts in) But the party cried foul. It is all over the place. I am not alleging. It is something which the party in Kano made a lot of noise and complained about. We are waiting to see other states. This is what is happening. How do you grow democracy if the right to gather and do political activities is denied you by authorities? It is very dangerous. Look at what happened in Kogi State when APC government sent people and our party men and women were cut with machetes. We have the pictures of those cut with machetes even though the governor went round giving peanuts for them to go to the hospital. The fact is that that is what is happening. Our party is compiling all of this to make them firstly, domestically public and also to bring the attention of the international community to the kind of uncalled for actions, especially in states, with the backing of security agents to deny people right to public gathering even when you follow the law and give appropriate notices.

APC is likely to deny these allegations

How can they deny them? They can never deny. Okay, if they deny them, let it not happen again in other states, now that we are going to every state to hold rallies. It’s not about denials. It is something that would be seen. If it happens in one or two states what stops it from happening in others? Let’s wait and see. As I said earlier, this is something coming from state governments but using federal security agencies. Who has sanctioned the federal security agencies to support APC controlled government denials of all our rights to gather?

What is becoming clear to political watchers is that, rightly or wrongly, your party members have been waiting for Buhari to declare or decline to contest the 2019 presidential election before they can jump into the fray and…

(Cuts in) Didn’t Atiku declare two recently? He declared in Port Harcourt. Before him Fayose had declared. Before him Sule Lamido declared. Everybody has his time for declaration. There is no time limit for declaration and everybody has his or her ways of thinking that it might work.

Now, let me come to you. Your party here in Kaduna State adopted you for the 2019 presidential race. Before then this was a message intended to be spread. Where do we go from there?

From where?

From the point your party members in Kaduna adopted you.

I have been going across this country consulting with other key stakeholders. It is inappropriate for people of certain status within our party to just read or watch me on television making statements. I think the right thing is for me to sufficiently consult and confer. I am still consulting. Nigeria is wide and big just like PDP is. There are a lot of people you should accord their due respect by consulting and discussing with them.

Would you say you are in a good stead to go into the race with the aggregate of opinions?

In my life, I have always been in good stead.

So you are going for the election in 2019.

When I conclude the formal declaration or statement would be made, but I am very happy with the response I am getting as I go through the length and breadth of Nigeria. I am very happy and satisfied.

As a stakeholder of the PDP, I should ask you if you are satisfied with the quality of the aspirants so far from your party.

It is not over until it is over. I do not know how many more are consulting. I can’t be the only one. There are many more people consulting, I believe. So, let’s wait until then. Let me remind you that INEC has not given the green light for campaigns. So are you going to act against the law?  So nobody is behind schedule because we have not seen the green light for campaigns. All the aspirants, including myself if I join tomorrow, have our pluses and minuses. Nobody is perfect. Only God is perfect. Party members will field the one they feel is most capable of flying their flag. If we are all capable only one person can get it.

What can you say about the current administration? It’s three years now in power, time enough for the APC government to be assessed.

It is game over because what else can they do rather than to start packing and go. We have not made significant progress in spite of the investments made before them and the ones they have made during their time. Security is worse than it was before.  You know the insurgency at one time came down but then there is a resurgence of the same insurgency apart from other criminal activities you know of, herdsmen/farmers in communities, kidnappings, cattle rustlings; it is worse than it was before. Unemployment; people find it more difficult now to feed. What is the tuition fee now? What was it before?  I am sure you have children in university. You compare. Money is not circulating. Yea, the economy is down. They say we are out of recession, technically, because of movement in price of crude. But if you take that one out and use other variables to measure we are still in recession. So we should not be in and out of recession because the price of crude has risen or fallen.

The APC, specifically the Vice-President reeled out figures recently, comparing the PDP era of Jonathan and the present APC government, saying that the releases made during the Jonathan era when crude oil price was higher than now was far below the releases by this present government at a time the crude oil price is down.

Now, let me tell you. Since APC took over, when Bill Gates made a statement about investment and human capital development issues, the percentage of allocation to education has been going down in terms of percentage. PDP never made a budget of N7.8 trillion. The budget of this government is what? N7.8 trillion. Our budget was ranging between N3 and N4 trillion, just about half of this. So in terms of quantum of money it is this government that has more money to spend. So they shouldn’t make it in terms of figures of how many billions because through devaluation and borrowing they have blown up the figure. If you relate that to our own, we will surpass the figure. So the basis is not the same. This is not about law. This is about economies of finance. When the basis is not the same you cannot make that kind of comparison. You have to bring them to equal basis before you compare. So the figure he quoted was a mutilated figure based on wrong use of base.

I know you believe in the restructuring of this country.

Absolutely.

The APC set up a committee, which made far-reaching recommendations regarding the need to restructure Nigeria. While I will not want to ask you an obvious question regarding their intention, I will not fail to ask you whether the consensus of opinion that gave rise to their recommendation was correct.

You see, I do not believe them because if today you say yes and tomorrow you say no and you keep on changing your position what are we supposed to believe? The party that has been consistent is PDP. So in a situation where one person is consistent and another is inconsistent, it is easy for Nigerians to know that the person to believe is that person that is consistent. The only party to believe is PDP and not APC.

Why would Nigerians believe the PDP?

Because we have been consistent and have buttressed it even though not as extensive as it ought to have been. When President Obasanjo was there he convened a National Conference. When President Goodluck Jonathan was there he did something similar and part of the recommendations border on restructuring. All we need to do is to continue in the path we have started. It is not about us starting. It is something we have started long before now.

When the APC was in opposition they made promises that today many Nigerians are saying are yet to be fulfilled. Why do you think Nigerians should believe the PDP on this issue of restructuring if they are given the mandate?

Because we have the history of starting it even if not as extensive as some Nigerians may want to do it because some of the things change. Some of the things agreed to then may be stale now and some issue may have also come up. So all we need to do is to dust up what we have done and subject it to further discussions all over the country, see what is stale and what is new and follow the process.

Most parties have zoned the presidency to the North. ADP has just done that. There are Nigerians who are saying that for now, no candidate can match Buhari and that what the North has is just Buhari. Can you…

(Cuts in) In APC.

No, they are talking of the entire North.

Why?

They talk about the fight against corruption. That he is the only one who can fight corruption the way…

(Cuts in) Who has been given the chance? Some people have not been given the chance to know whether they can do it or not. Buhari may have the desire, but from what we have seen the fight against corruption has been politically tainted. There is no cohesion and coordination in the government and there are more people in APC if it is on the basis of corruption they are in APC. And there are wild allegations against serving officers whether at federal or state levels in APC who are alleged to be corrupt. Look I have said this before that you can never know the true level of corruption in any government until that government is not in power. So, let us wait. In fact, we don’t even have to wait based on what we know. What the Transparency International has released is an eye opener. In fact, the corruption level as far as they are concerned, going by the corruption index recently released is worse than PDP because they know much more than we do. You can dispute the outcome of their findings but it is the same that is done worldwide. And if the situation were better the ranking would not have been worse than it has ever been. That’s not to say there has never been corruption in the past, but it is worse now.

So there are many Nigerians who can do better. There are many Nigerians who can face , not just corruption but the economy, security and others. And if the economy is terribly bad, unemployment left, right and center, all kinds of problems it can also give way to corruption anyway. When you limit resources to a few, majority has nothing, all sorts of things are bound to happen, criminality, corruption when you have the opportunity because you do not know when next you will have another opportunity. So we must make the system fair and equitable to all, create wealth re-distribution programme, employment, enhance accountability and work, not on the basis of political party to fight the ills of corruption. I am for, coming together to do it and not making it as an issue of one political party.

As a man in the finance profession, what can you say about the economy today? I will also want you to say something about the security challenges that we have in this country.

The economy does not like a system that is working against itself. The system should be executive legislature. They need to work in harmony for the good of all of us; enact legislation that can enhance our welfare and well being and security of Nigerians. Since this government came to office they have been at loggerheads. So the necessary cohesion to create an enabling environment for good governance to thrive has not been there and I don’t see it being there until after 2019 election. You have agencies of government acting at variance, officials of one organ opposing others on one subject matter. How can the system work? Investors are noticing this. No investor will come in under this confusing atmosphere. And if you don’t have direct investments coming in and people having confidence in our economy our resources alone cannot do it. When we are politically intolerant which investor will take the risk to invest in Nigeria? What of security, divisiveness, killings, maiming and kidnappings? In some other countries if two or three people die it is heavy news. Hundreds will die in Nigeria it is news for a day and it is swept under the carpet. The same killings will happen today, continue the next day and nobody is apprehended. If you can’t prevent it, can’t you apprehend the culprits especially when it keeps re-occurring? These are things of concern. It is very worrisome.