JOHN Cardinal Onaiyekan, the Catholic Archbishop of Abuja does not need much introduction. A former President of the Christian Association of Nigeria, (CAN) and President of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of Nigeria, he has always spoken his mind about the situation in the country. Having assumed the role of a gadfly for the country, he does not hesitate in speaking out against unpopular policies of government. In this interview, with BOLAJI TUNJI, the cleric speaks on the one year of President Muhammadu Buhari-led administration, the anti-corruption crusade and the recent petrol pump price increase, among other issues. Excerpts…
It’s over a year of President Muhammadu Buhari’s administration, how would you assess the journey so far?
For quite some time, we have said we should be patient and give the administration some time.Even government has asked us to be patient and I think we should still be patient. But what seems obvious and of which one had hope is that after a year, things would have been clearer than they are right now. I’m saying, that is the hope. At the same time knowing how delicate and complex the issue of governance can be, especially with Nigeria, we still need to be patient. A few positions taken by government appear to be in the right direction, the only problem is that the details, the objectives that the government wants to achieve should still be clearly defined. I want to believe that the present government did some home works during the electoral campaigns and made some promises to Nigerians. It is not too clear, whether they foresaw how complex the reality on the ground would be, which is all the more reason we need to give then more time. The only thing about giving people more time is that you don’t have all the time. We have only a four-year term during which government must prove to us that we are right to trust them with power. One year is gone, soon the second year would be here and after the third year, we will start preparing for another election. I would like to believe that after this year, they would be in a better position to roll out critical and strategic programmes which will indeed justify the promises they have made to us on the need to be patient.
Criticisms have trailed the administration that government does not have a clear cut economic blueprint, would you agree with that position?
I’m not an economist. Therefore I’m not in a position to say whether the government has a clear cut economic blue print or not. The much I know, especially with regards to the modern economy especially in terms of political economy, is that it is not easy to determine certain things. It is one thing to have an economic policy and idea, it is another thing to ensure the policies and ideas are carried out. At the end of the day, what the majority of Nigerians, like me, are asking the government is; what is the quality of life we are getting from our government? That is what Nigerians are asking. I don’t think Nigerians are asking for a pie in the sky, they are not asking government to work miracles. Nigerians are expecting that the minimum standard of living would be forthcoming from any government. In the area of economics, there’s something we should not forget is that whoever came to government in this past year with the price of oil going from $100 to a barrel to $30 to a barrel would have quite a lot of problems with the arithmetic. The question is, how do you get Nigerians to absorb the effect of this difficult arithmetic? You can only manage the fund that is available to you. The place of oil income in the Nigerian economy is very, very predominant. What we are then saying is that until we are able to do what we said we will; which is to diversify, and do it effectively, we will be at the mercy of whatever the oil price is. All I am saying is that if things are not moving as fast as we expect, or things are not what it should be, it could be due to bad management, it could also be due to the arithmetic of our income. Depending on who you are, our position to the government in power is, one’s answer may be one way or the other. Having said that, we should not forget that there are many African nations that do not have oil and have managed to run their affairs fairly decently. May be the biggest problem is that the present government has inherited a nation and an apparatus that was used to $100 per barrel of oil but is finding it difficult to adjust to $30 a barrel currently . I am only speculating because once it comes to the economy, one needs to have the bigger picture or the right figures and statistics which are not available to me.
A few months ago, you advised the government on the anti-corruption war. Would you say that government and the anti-corruption agencies are doing it the right way considering the criticism that the war is tilted against those believed to have served the country well and officials of the immediate past administration?
First and foremost, everybody seems to agree that there is or there was an intolerable level of corruption in the country. And that something should be done about it. But when it comes to actually facing it, it is not what you can settle by just rounding up a few people. Government should not allow people to have a feeling that the war on corruption is about targeting certain people. That will defeat the war against corruption. My feelings about this whole thing is based on my understanding of the fact that the kind of corruption in Nigeria was systemic, endemic. While I’m not saying that people who took money should be allowed to go free, I would have felt that the emphasis should be on the system. Reorganize the system of governance in the country in such a way that it would not be an easy thing for anybody to steal millions and billions of naira because of the position he or she had held in government . Find a way to block all the holes in the system. Insist that the structures that regulate the affair of governance especially the financial aspect is adhered to in such a way that you don’t have to be a saint to be able to remain honest. In many countries of the world, a lot of money is moving around, and there are a few people who are also corrupt there, you are corrupt at your own risk. You can be caught. My fear is that since we have this situation of endemic corruption, there is nobody, who was anybody who has taken part in the affairs of this nation in the past twenty years, if you scratch small, there’s no way you wouldn’t find something. That being the case, the way we deal with the so-called corrupt people needs to be carefully addressed, so as not to appear, as we are hearing witch-hunting nowadays. Why do you pounce on one person and leave others? I believe if it were possible for government to adopt a different attitude that would find a way on the one hand working on the system and on the other hand, making it possible for certain cases of blatant, heavy stealing to be handled in a way that if you agree you have stolen so much, bring the money back. This may appear naive, but if you are going the legal way without considering how people can refund the stolen monies, it will take a long time. Time, it was, during the military regime when you round people up and lock them up until they confess. You would agree with me that, that was not too good for the country and it cannot happen now. Now, we are running a system of, you are innocent until proven guilty and I think what that means is that, we admit that it is better for a guilty man to go free than an innocent man to be unjustly condemned. That is the principle now. How far we are going to succeed with that, I don’t know. You will recall that even during the (Goodluck) Jonathan administration, there were a whole lot of scandals breaking. It was almost a regular affair, happening every two months. But those scandals were not in any way dealt with, before you finish with one, another would come. So many things were swept under the carpet. Can we as a nation continue living with this without making too many people enemies of the nation? Here comes the issue you raised about people who had served the nation well. Of course, you find out that the people who are high in government are the ones who had the opportunity to either make or steal so much money. So, you will have a situation of someone who has served the country well but could also have helped himself very, very generously. We have to see how to balance it. If we have a situation where someone had stepped on powerful toes while in government but he is being unjustly punished. I would have thought that this would be a concern of government that this does not happen.
Taking you back and based on what you have said, would you say the corruption war is targeted at certain people, taking the case of the former Head of Service, (Stephen) Oronsaye, who is facing trial?
I did not say the anti-corruption war is targeted against anybody, but I am saying that the impression is created for the simple reason that whoever is corrupt and whoever is not? That is the issue we have not resolved. I am looking forward to a situation of someone high up in government, like the person you have mentioned, faced the trials and ends up being vindicated and I will say, this is the type of person that we should celebrate and make a hero and put his statue in front of the National Assembly. Here is a Nigerian who had the opportunity to be corrupt, but was not. We cannot do that until he goes through trial. When I talk about structures, we are to include not only how business should be conducted in the civil service but how the law should be administered . The scenario of 100 lawyers invading a court over one case, that is ridiculous . We should find a way to prevent such charade. We have to see that judges are in position to do their works without intimidation, without harassment. We are talking of separation of powers, without anybody telling them what to do. When we see the way some of the cases are going, one becomes a bit worried. Some of the judges have also come out to say that they were under strong influences, that they are not free to do their work. How many of them can resist any influence from above and from different places? We are back to the rules and to how things are done properly. I would have hoped that the whole process of dealing with the cases of corruption can be dispensed with without too much rigmarole and we still ensure that justice was done.
Nigeria has been described recently as ‘fantastically corrupt’ by the British Prime Minister. To many Nigerians, President Buhari’s response came as a surprise, as he said all he wanted was for looted money to be repatriated. What’s your reaction to this?
We heard when the British PM said that Nigeria is fantastically corrupt. We all heard it. But ever before he said so, we have also been saying the same about our country. Even our government has been saying so about our country. So there is nothing new in what he said that we have not said about ourself. The only aspect of it, which some of us have been saying, is that it takes two to tango. The stolen monies are not kept in our banks, but are used to acquire property in those countries.
Large part of it is kept abroad and kept in those countries where we have so much noise about honesty and good governance in Nigeria. And it is not possible to say governments in those countries are unaware of these things. A German once told me that if he takes more than 10000 Euros to lodge in the bank, he would be made to explain where he got such huge sum before it could be accepted. He now can’t understand how a nobody can come from Nigeria with a suitcase full of money and deposits millions of euro in the bank and nobody asks questions.
So if Mr. President wants to go beyond rhetorics, and seriously insist that those countries where our monies are hidden, if they want to continue to remain our friends, they should refund those monies. Some people will say it is about the banks not the government, but we know very well that when government wants to pursue certain funds, it’s very simple. A good example is America, after 9/11, America decided to focus on any money coming from the Arab nations and the independence of the banks didn’t apply. Meaning that when it suits them, they know what to do. They need to be told that situation in Nigeria is so desperate that we can’t continue keeping our money, oiling their economy when so many of our people are unemployed.
Having said that, I don’t think any of those countries really wants to let go of the monies. It is not as if our people took the money there and they dug the ground for them to keep the money. No. The money is in their economy, running their factories and their business. The Nigerian who kept his money is just collecting a small dividend compared to what they are using the money for over there. That’s why it is so sad. So, we shouldn’t be surprised if those countries are not keen to let go. I am waiting to see whether (Barack) Obama, (David) Cameron, (Angela) Merkel or any of those western countries would buy into our request to return that money.
With dwindling revenue, what do you think government should be doing…?
One of the things we are already aware of, is that the cost of governance is very high. Take for instance our National Assembly. What they take home is higher than that of their American counterparts and they do not see anything wrong in that. This is where I think the government should move, to reduce the cost of governance. It won’t be easy. But they can’t be telling us to tighten our belts while they are loosening theirs. The National Assembly is still going on with business as usual, they are still going on a budget of a barrel of oil at $150. I just learnt they bought some vehicles at a cost of N30 million each. And these are the people who are supposed to make laws for the common man, when they do not know the meaning of poverty.