From Sylvanus Viashima, Jalingo
Catholic Bishop of Jalingo Diocese, Charles Hammawa, has called for the removal of the immunity clause from the constitution.
In this exclusive interview, he also spoke on the security situation in the country, and zoning of the presidency ahead of 2023 general elections among other issues.
What is your assessment of the security situation in the country today?
As I have said on many occasions, insecurity is everybody’s breakfast, lunch and dinner in Nigeria, but a very forceful one anyway. Nobody will like to have such a meal for a healthy living. It is rather unfortunate. I even lack words to describe how we came to this stage.
There are a number of factors responsible for the insecurity. I know some people are just impossible to deal with; they will never think of earning a living in a decent way, rather they would want to feast on the sweat of others. So, they are prepared to engage in armed robbery, kidnapping and other evil practices, including pen robbery, where people steal billions of Naira. Armed robbers cannot steal in billions but the political office holders steal in billions through pen robbery. So, we have such people, who rely on others to make a living. But then, there are those who said it is a reaction to injustice in the land. They see the injustice in the system and everywhere by those who are even supposed to enforce justice; whether it is the security agents or lawmakers or those in the judiciary. So, for me, it is about injustice and the evil intentions of others.
Other reasons may be parochial in nature. Here, I mean those who feel entitled to rule and govern others because they feel their religion is the best; so, they must kill in the name of God and religion. These are the things that have left us in this terribly precarious situation.
There are calls from certain quarters that some sort of amnesty or compensation should be given to bandits. Do you share the same idea?
I think it is the craziest idea anybody can come up with. Reward criminality; what for? As I said earlier, even if you want to react to something, there are better ways to go about it. You cannot resort to banditry, yet you are calling for compensation. It shouldn’t even come up on the table for discussion. It shouldn’t come from any sensible person; it is absurd at the highest degree.
What is your opinion on the prosecution of Nnamdi Kanu and Sunday Igboho who have been agitating for self determination? Some people feel they have the right to agitate for self determination; what are your thoughts?
Let me begin by affirming the right to self-determination. It’s there; it’s given in Nigeria and the world. People have the right to do that but it has to be done with due process and without threat to people’s lives and property, especially when it is within a nation. Even when Nelson Mandela was agitating for freedom, it was against the colonial powers, but he was violent. So, to seek that, you must do so without violence.
However, as much as the government has a duty to ensure that those who engage in violence in the course of agitations are made to face the laws of the land, they must also ensure that they follow the law in prosecuting such persons. And it must be done without bias, and across the board. Why are the two individuals singled out, while others are causing more havoc and even proclaiming a nation within a nation, and nobody is calling them to order as if they are elusive? Why is the government playing double standards? We expect the Federal Government to set the standard in such a way that if justice is to be done, it be done to all without discrimination.
Do you see nepotism at play in this country?
Even a child born today will feel it. It is a shame and we should be moving with our heads down. With all the resources that we have to make a great nation, we are languishing in want. Nepotism is at the highest level, no doubt about that and nobody should defend that. To get a job in this country depends on who you know; it doesn’t matter whether you are qualified or not. That is what is obtainable in this country. Why should people be recruited in the security agencies only after they have paid huge sums of money? How do you expect them to come out and ensure that justice is given? Something radical has to be done.
Some people say that Nigeria is on the precipice considering the level of insecurity, infrastructural deficit, the messy economy and other indices. How did we get here?
We have said that before. It is about the evil in people’s minds, selfishness and greed. Those are the things responsible for the hardship we are going through. When I sit and think about it, I just say that God is in Nigeria, otherwise we should have crumbled. But surprisingly, Nigerians are still surviving, such that some can even make jokes out of the situation, maybe as a psychological therapy to douse tension about all that is happening. It is surprising that we are still together as one. I attribute it to God and religion, and I don’t mean this in the wrong understanding of religion where people exploit it for their selfish, parochial, ethnic and political reasons. It is corruption, greed and nepotism that are responsible for our plight. It is the same tendencies that have caused leadership failure, leading to mismanagement of resources, and lack of patriotism.
Should Nigeria be talking about infrastructural deficit now? There’s no reason for that. Mind you that in most of the areas that we have issues, billions of Naira have been expended there supposedly only that they were all siphoned into private pockets. Look at power, and roads. When you go to other countries, you will see a road that was constructed decades ago still in perfect shape. Here, a road that is still under construction caving in even before it is completed. Buildings crumble to the ground even before they are completed. You have abandoned projects all over the place after monies have been paid for them.
Sadly, we got here because of the evil in people’s hearts. We lack the fear of God and allow selfish and sectional interest to rule us. And yes, we could be on the precipice, no doubt, but a good leader can turn things around. Once you have a leader who shows clearly by word and action that he wants the right thing to be done, those around will have no option but to key in.
At what stage should the church be involved in correcting some of the anomalies in the country?
Well, the survey has said that Nigeria is one of the most religious countries in the world. It’s an irony. It would be a very good thing if that reflects in our daily lives, but as you have rightly queried, we don’t see that translate into our day to day lives. So what is our religion based on?
Man is not totally responsible for himself, because even the atheist is associated with something. There is something in there that appeals to a sense of goodness and they want to do it but it seems we are not listening enough to that inner voice crying for good. It doesn’t matter what religion you are identified with, we don’t listen enough and as a result, we abuse religion. We have become hypocritical.
Religion has to translate into something good, not something bad. All of us should go back to our inner selves and listen to our consciences. Let us dignify religion by good living.
The church can come into it by preaching but we must be sincere to ourselves and one another. You can give it different names but religion is about love and love does not hurt, rather you welcome suffering on behalf of a person you love. So, if love is at the root of religion, we will be living rightly with God and with every human being. You will never do anything that will hurt a sister but would rather be prepared to take the burden. So we will continue to preach that. Sadly, some of us go about looking for self-glory and personal accumulation rather than preaching the message. It is sickening when you hear people kill in the name of God. It is disgusting when people say they kill so as to convert people to serve their God. Religion is supposed to promote good living, whether it is spiritually or in the interpersonal relationship we have; whether at the political, social, or economic level. So, let’s appropriate this assertion as very religious people and translate it into action.
What is your take on the zoning of the presidency in 2023?
That is another thing I consider as contrary to democracy. Democracy is about free choice to elect someone who can serve me and the nation. So, when you come to tell me that if I am to be elected, I should be restricted to a particular area, where is the freedom and democracy in it? So, I consider it an aberration in democracy.
Be that as it may, we have so cornered ourselves in this country. The idea was muted and something began to happen, so now that it has been muted, it must be allowed to go round first. One person cannot have 99 percent of the leadership of the state and then say others shouldn’t have it; let it go round first. So ahead of 2023, it is only fair that those who have not had the slot should be given a chance since we have started it. But basically, zoning leadership in any given circumstance is contrary to what democracy stands for because my choice is restricted.
How do you see the recent Electoral Act amendments?
It is a desirable thing and many yearned for it. Our hope is that the President assents to it promptly, without subjecting it to unnecessary manipulations just to satisfy certain interests and shortchange the electorate again.
Most parts of Taraba State have been affected by one crisis or the other, especially the Southern part, where the Catholic Church has a strong population. How is the church coping with the aftermath of the crises?
We are only surviving by the sheer grace of God. I made a claim some time ago at one of the meetings we had that the Catholic Church is the worst hit by the crisis in the state. Some agreed and some disagreed. But that we are surviving and doing our best and attending to the people is nothing but the sheer grace of God, and that is what keeps me going, and I want to believe that that is what has kept us all going.
I was searching through my box yesterday after my siesta and I came across a document we submitted to the government about the colossal damage the Catholic Church has suffered since the crisis started in 2012. There was a second one we did and sent to the relevant places of both the state and Federal Government. I have not received any acknowledgement that it has been received so far. The grace of God will keep us going.
How is the Catholic Church in Jalingo coping with the COVID-19 pandemic?
I wouldn’t have the terminology to describe what this is all about; the economists are there. But then, it is something everyone has felt. Government has come up with different kinds of policies or programmes to assuage the hardships, but the issue of distribution is another thing. Whatever is given out is not going round, and this again, is a result of corruption and nepotism we are talking about.
It has been devastating and actually, we are yet to recover from the ill wind that blew up to no good. Whatever it was, natural or man-made, it has come and we are suffering from it. We only pray that this doesn’t come again. As a charitable body, a lot of people look up to the Church for assistance in such times. But, sometimes, we have to say ‘sorry we don’t have’ or ‘take, it may not be enough’ because you can’t give what you don’t have. We would continue to pray that we don’t ever experience this again.
In 2020, we also witnessed the ENDSARS protest. Let’s talk about the reports on the protest?
It was a peaceful protest and the most civilized thing that happened to Nigeria in recent times. Peaceful protest is allowed by law. But, how it was handled, you may say, was not so good, to say the least. Majority of people have said that the protesters never went violent; they were even sitting down carrying the Nigerian flag, and demanding that they be treated humanely by the law enforcement agents. And then what happened, happened. The report has come out and as usual, the Nigerian factor is at play again because that is what I will say it is. A group does a work, another group goes behind to doctor it and the end result is not correct; there are errors designed to distract our attention. The fact that the commission of inquiry was set up is good, but let us lay our hands on the correct report, and again be guided by justice and fair play. People have died, we cannot deny that fact, and instead of sympathizing and condoling, you give a blind denial and so on and so forth. It is most annoying. But, can we be serious in Nigeria and do something without religious, ethnic and political bias for once? We are all Nigerians; we are humans. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. For once, the Nigerian government should own up and do the needful.
How will you rate the anti corruption war in the country?
I will certainly not give it a pass mark because the fight against corruption is not as it should be. I will score it very low. In fact, I can tell you that it is very disappointing. Having said that, there is this wrong notion in some quarters, even among the people in government that corruption is just about financial misappropriation. It is more than that. The nepotism we are talking about is corruption. When you fail to listen to a fair cry for justice and to act on it just because you want to protect certain interests, it is corruption. When you manipulate votes to suit a particular person or interest, it is still corruption. So, it goes beyond mere giving and taking bribes and embezzlement of public funds. And we are seeing all of these going on in broad daylight with glaring impunity.
Even the recovery of funds, either from abroad or at home that has been shouted to high heavens in the media, is still questionable. Who has accounted for all the monies or is it a case of re-looting the loot? Look at the high profile corruption cases going back several years. A serious administration with the political will would have ensured that these cases are tried speedily and people made to face the wrath of the law while the loot is recovered and transparently put back into the national coffers. We have not seen that. The cases are still dragging on in court with a clear lack of seriousness.
Sadly, because these people have stolen all the money you can think of, they engage the best lawyers in the act of delay tactics and they create all kinds of technicalities to stall the process, while a poor person who steals a chicken or a tuber of yam because he is genuinely hungry, is left to languish in prison without even the benefit of a trial. So, these pen robbers are the worst kind of robbers and they are really dealing with the country.
Unfortunately, some media organisations have also failed in the discharge of their duties. When issues come up, instead of investigating them thoroughly and reporting the same, they compromise and cover it up. We all need to respect the laws of the land. A key component that is affecting the fight against corruption is the immunity given to political office holders. Why can’t we try sitting governors or even presidents? Look at South Africa, they tried Jacob Zuma. It happens all over the world. So, why is ours different? Is it that our leaders are considered infallible? Sadly, by the time they are allowed to spend several years looting in the name of being protected by the law, they come out almost too rich to be tried because they hire the best lawyers available. So, if we mean to fight corruption, we must expunge the immunity clause from the constitution, otherwise we would just be wasting our time.
What is the implication of the demand to provide land for cattle farmers across the country?
That is part of the nepotism and corruption that we are talking about. Will the same government give you land to do your own personal business in any part of the country without you paying for it? So, why give free land to just this select group of individuals? Ranching is, no doubt, the most civilised system of cattle rearing all over the world, so, if people want to rear cattle, let them sweat it out and acquire the land for their ranches.
If the government decides to provide land for people who want to do businesses, then they should go ahead and do it for everyone. If I decide to go and fry akara in Zamfara, then the government should be able to provide the land for me and provide facilities for me to start my business. That is what it means. It is injustice of the highest level. You suffer and acquire land for your business, yet, the government still collects taxes from you and you want to take over people’s lands and give it to others just like that. It is not correct and totally unacceptable.
There are very low regards to moral values all over the world and Nigeria is not an exception. How do we get out of this?
That can be tied up once again with the issue of taking our religious life seriously and being conscious of the life hereafter. Sadly, a lot of people have been corrupted by the wrong and deliberate messages over time that they no longer see the wrong thing as wrong. The internet is inundated with all kinds of terrible contents that permeate the subconscious, and over time, twist it so badly. Despite the efforts for people to respect their consciences, it seems to be a free fall in moral standards. The way out is to take our moral values, ethical standards and our religious life seriously. Yes, as humans, the tendency to do the wrong thing is always there but we must be conscious of the fact that these things are wrong and make deliberate efforts to amend. It becomes a major challenge when you see the audacity with which immorality is perpetrated. We must remember that we all come from somewhere and would return to our creator someday to face judgement. We must remember this and be properly guide