In this interview with ROSE EJEMBI, social critic and former Lagos State Police Commissioner, Alhaji Abubakar Tsav described the dethronement of Emir Muhammadu Sanusi 11 as a great loss to the north and his banishment as a huge loss to Nigeria. He insisted that President Muhammadu Buhari should have intervened in the matter before it degenerated to this level. The retired police boss said if Sanusi’s banishment is allowed to stand, the country’s democracy is seriously under threat as people would be afraid to speak truth to power.

 

Sanusi was reportedly deposed for speaking the truth to power. As an activist of truth, would you now recommend that people speak less to power?

No, because if people speak less to power, how are they going to help the society? Even in developing democracies all over the world, people criticize and when they criticize, the government knows where it has gone wrong and takes steps to correct them. You know, the thing with activists is that, if they see something bad, they find it very difficult to remain quiet. Sanusi must have been asked not to talk but there are so many things that might have happened that forced him to talk. And the person who talks like that is a true leader. He knows the problems of the people and he proffers solutions and by talking, he is helping the society. As far as I’m concerned, I see Sanusi as an asset and his dethronement as a loss to the north. And if the banishment is allowed to stand, it’s a loss to all Nigerians because he will remain quiet and we will not gain from his experience. The man is very experienced and knows so many things. And the more he talks the more people know what is happening and they take steps. All what he has been saying, nobody has come out to say he is lying. Nobody has proved that he is a liar. So, for me, his dethronement is very unfortunate.

Traditional rulers play a lot of roles in the north. How will the fall of Sanusi and the humiliation he has suffered thereafter affect the psychology of other traditional rulers who are presently in office?

Of course, it will affect them because all of them will now remain very quiet and become ‘mumu’. They will all now be at the mercy of their governors and whenever the governor wants to deal with any of them, he will do it and nobody will say anything. It is just like having this state police that people are talking about. If the states have police too they will begin to use the powers even worse powers than the powers used on Sanusi. So, I think we are not developing in this country. The constitution gives us the power to express ourselves. The freedom of speech allows you to say what you want to say provided you do not infringe on anybody’s rights. But with what has happened to Emir Sanusi, they’re trying to encroach on the rights of the citizens to speak out and that is wrong.

Many people have condemned the process of the deposition including the fact that laws were primarily enacted for the deposition. What is your take on this?

I think there is a law, which they hurriedly passed and it was designed and directed against Sanusi because they wanted him out of the way by all means. This is not good because his deposition is a great loss to the north and if he remains in banishment, it’s a great loss to the whole country because we will not be able to tap from his knowledge and wisdom.

The powers of governors to control their states have been reinstated by this incidence. But would this not lead to democratic dictatorship?

That’s where we are heading to. I read in the papers a few minutes ago that the President (Buhari) said he did not know much about it and that the states have rights over their traditional rulers. But I disagree completely because a traditional ruler like Sanusi is not an ordinary person. He is a world acclaimed leader whom people know everywhere. They know what he stands for, he stands for the truth, he stands for justice, he stands for fair play, he stands for everything good. Now, if the President is saying he did not know anything about it, it’s not proper because if a person like that is deposed and anything happens, it can spark crisis. Is it only then that the President will know? The President should have known before hand so that he can put security in place to deal with any eventualities. But in this case, we are told (I wasn’t there) that a presidential jet went and lifted him. Who permitted the use of the Presidential jet? Who permitted the use of security outfits that were used? All the security outfits that were used are creation of the federal government, so, they must have been told by federal authority to go and carry out that assignment. As far as I’m concerned, our democracy is under threat. Again, I do not know what happened in this process because when we did that of Dasuki (because I was commissioner of police in Sokoto at that time), they created foundations to depose Dasuki. Even his own too was faulty. Before his deposition, I advised the administrator that if he deposes Dasuki and he (Dasuki) goes to court, he would win against him because he was appointed by a letter so, you cannot just sit and say you have removed him. And if you’re removing him, you have to state clearly what he has done. Have they served him a query? Because as a public officer, you must serve a query on him and point out the wrongs he had done and he must reply. If he replies and you find that his reply is inadequate, you follow it up with either warning or punishment. I don’t think this was done in the case of Sanusi because it was hurriedly done. If you follow happenings in Kano you will know that even the creation of these emirates was hurriedly done. These legislators were on leave when they called them and hurriedly they came and passed that law. So, it’s really unfortunate. I’m not happy about it notwithstanding the fact that I support Buhari because he has come to help this country. Buhari is improving this country. I don’t care what people talk about him but he is doing his best. We understand also that the committee of former heads of state, which included Gen. Gowon, Gen. Babangida, Gen. Abdulsalami Abubakar, former President Obasanjo and the rest of them visited and tried to intervene. Abdulsalami said they spoke to Ganduje and the Emir separately and then they also called them and spoke with them jointly. He said they also called them and spoke to them individually after which they left the two of them to talk to each other and then they wrote a report and passed to the President. The President must have read that report. So, there’s something wrong somewhere and it’s not good.

A major fallout of this deposition is the twin issue of exile and banishment of the deposed ruler despite the fact that it is strange to our constitution. What is your reaction to this?

Yes, I think if they depose him, they should not infringe on his fundamental human right. They should allow him to go wherever he wants. He should be allowed if he wants to go and settle overseas or anywhere else. But if the security agencies believe that his presence in that town will create some security problems, then he can be advised to relocate. I don’t think that happened in this case. They’re using this colonial laws that were used by the colonial masters to silence local traditional rulers in those days. That is what they have used against Sanusi and it’s not good. Initially, they banished him and took him to a town in Loko in Nasarawa State and they said the town is like a village. That was where they initially took him to without any proper provision. That is an abuse of his fundamental human right.

Don’t you think that all those gimmicks of taking him to a remote village to reside are just part of plans to further humiliate him?

That’s exactly what has happened. But I seem to admire and appreciate the emir because I think he is somebody who once he believes in something, he stands by it. If he believes that a wrong is a wrong he stands by it. And if he believes that a right is a right, he stands by it. He is not somebody who can go and easily go and apologize for a wrong done. If you follow what is written about him when he was Managing Director in one of the commercial banks and I think something happened and they asked him to apologize and he resigned instead. And then he went somewhere else and when something happened, they wanted him to apologize and he resigned. It was through that that he was picked to become the Governor of Central Bank. At the Central Bank too, they wanted to rubbish him, he saw the handwriting on the wall and left. So, he is somebody who stands by anything he believes in. And these are the sorts of leaders we want. If we say we are trying to improve on our country and trying to entrench democracy by obeying the rule of law, then there should be freedom of speech so that people can be free to say whatever they want to say. But if anybody says anything against you which has infringed on your right or defamed you, you can go to court and sue him. But you cannot come and try to silence such a brilliant fellow all because he is telling you the right thing. Look at the almajiri issue they’re talking about, look at the marriage and mass production of children which after giving birth to them, the parents would just abandon them. These are some of the matters which Sanusi took up. Some people are arguing that while he was Emir, what steps did he take to improve the lot of the ordinary people in Kano? We all know that when he was emir, he wasn’t controlling any vote. So, how can he improve the lot of the people? But he did his best and which I think people should appreciate. But instead, people out of jealousy of whom that man is, because of his self pride, turned against him. I am disappointed and sorry for people who are supporting the action taken against Sanusi because one day, the same action would be taken against them. And the thing again is that we don’t know maybe the next governor will come and reverse all these things. That can happen and then we will begin to have instability in Kano. That’s not good enough. I think they have not acted well at all.

Some Nigerians are of the opinion that the President has a hand in the deposition of Emir Sanusi…

(Cuts in)… No, I wouldn’t say he has a hand in his deposition but he knows about it because the committee of heads of state went there, tried to intervene and the committee gave him a report on the matter. So, he knows about it but I cannot say whether he has a hand in it or not. And it’s not good to accuse him wrongly.

But people felt that if he didn’t have a hand in it, he should have intervened in the matter before it degenerated to this level but he didn’t

Well, his position is that it’s a state matter and it falls within the purview of the state and within the competence of the state governor to handle it. But if I were in his (Buhari’s) position, I would intervene. And a lot of people had been pleading for him to intervene before now. I also wrote an appeal, not to the President directly but in the papers, that he should intervene. I also appealed to northern elders to intervene and try and resolve the matter because I feel it’s capable of bringing down the north. With his removal, it’s the north that will suffer. And if his banishment is allowed to stand, it is the country that will suffer because all what we are hearing from him, he will not say them again.

We heard that shortly after his dethronement and banishment, posters of Sanusi for President 2023 flooded Kano. How would you react to this?

No, they  just wanted to bring another controversy. Why should they bring him into politics? They shouldn’t bring him into politics because maybe not everybody will vote him and the man too may not be interested. So, they should leave him to be who he is and what he is. All we want is his freedom. We also understand he has been appointed pro chancellor of Kaduna State University and also a member of Board in the same Kaduna. So, it means there are some people who still appreciate him and they want to use his special knowledge and resources.