Daniel Kanu
Senator Azu Agboti, American-trained Chartered Accountant represented Ebonyi South Senatorial District at the Red Chambers.
He was chairman, Senate Committee on Petroleum Resources (Down Stream) and later chairman, Senate Services Committee.
In this interview with Sunday Sun, the erudite lawmaker speaks on the Nigerian condition, why he does not like zoning, corruption fight, border closure, and 2023 presidency, among other national issues. Excerpt:
Nigerians no doubt are passing through tough times and complaining. Many believe that the government is not on top of the situation. Do you agree with this assertion?
I still think that the government is doing well, doing their best. Nigeria is a very difficult country, when you have a population of over two hundred million people, you don’t expect to provide for everybody, you don’t even come close to providing all the infrastructure that are desirable, so we must try and support the government and support the man at the head because until you are in government you won’t know the heat that is there, you go there you meet all kinds of trouble and you don’t know which one is more important than the other. In that situation you begin to prioritize, some things will suffer so that something can be better, but I think if our government body has rolling plans they will be doing better. A situation when you hand over the baton to the other person he continues from where you stopped. So, I wouldn’t in clear conscience blame the man at the helm of affairs, he cannot be in the 36 states at the same time, he cannot be in every educational institution at the same time, he cannot be on the road at the same time or even try to ply all our roads, but the only thing that I know is that I believed in him when I thought he will tackle corruption head-on, but then he can’t do it alone and they appear to be scuttling the vision on stopping or reducing corruption. There is no country that is not corrupt, but you reduce the rate of corruption, but in this country, it is an epidemic and I am sorry for the young people because it does not appear to have solution, but I blame the young people because when they see corrupt people they begin to hail them, they start jumping up and praising them, they want to belong, they want to follow them, they swim in that ocean believing that tomorrow their time will come to be corrupt, forgetting the place of hard work. But when we stop praising corrupt people, shun them with their ill-gotten riches, look the other way, then they don’t feel like anything, you puncture their ego and keep them where they belong rather than eulogizing them, making them feel important. So, that is my feeling about the country, I can’t just lay the blame on the president and blame him for everything as some people do, he is not the maker of some of these things, but he came in to correct and it appears corruption is fighting back.
Are you saying that the corruption fight is overwhelming the government?
Of course, the heat will overwhelm anybody, including myself, yes; it is not an easy battle as many may think. If you think back, when he (President Buhari) came in he said he doesn’t want to go after anybody, but that people should just return the funds they have stolen and he will let them go, but nobody returned any fund, at least we did not hear of any. If people had returned even 30 per cent of what they stole the man perhaps, may have left them alone, but you know they are kleptomaniac. I don’t know how they wake up and look at themselves in the mirror everyday, it will be right to say that this corruption fight is overwhelming the government.
You know recently the office of the Attorney-General and Minister of Justice has also withdrawn, cut down the powers of the EFCC?
Well, they must have seen certain things that we are not privileged to see or know, like using those powers in the wrong way, nobody with a clear conscience will go and withdraw powers from the law enforcer without looking at their performance and how they are applying those powers. So, before we condemn anybody we must look at the causes of such withdrawal. I may not talk much about that now because I haven’t read what they withdrew and why they withdrew it.
You have been one of the committee chairmen of the downstream petroleum sector when you were in the Red Chambers. How would you react to the present forensic test that the government wants to conduct on the past activities of the Niger Delta Development Commission (NDDC)?
They should do the forensic test, why should anybody kick against the forensic test of where you worked before? Everybody should be audited, an audit is a natural thing, when they say forensic, forensic, it is simply audit and one needs not to be afraid when your hands are clean. The government simply wants to know: we gave you money where did you apply the money and how did you apply it, so the people who are kicking against it are stupid. For instance, I was the chairman of downstream petroleum and anytime they want to audit downstream petroleum during my time I will show them everything they want to see, nothing to hide when there is no skeleton in your cupboard. I am a poor man today because I didn’t go there to rip-off the country, if I had ripped-off the country, perhaps, I wouldn’t be talking to you.
Why won’t you talk? Even those that ripped-off the country are still talking, at least, to cover up too?
They must be shameless (laughs) if they are talking to cover up that is their own business, but I am not talking to cover up because it is the guilty that is always afraid. If you don’t have anything to hide you won’t bother of any probe, audit or forensic test. I cannot sacrifice my integrity for anything. That is the way I feel about corruption.
How would you react to the border closure by the Federal Government as some of the countries seem to be reacting now, closing shops belonging to Nigerians as in Ghana, for instance?
Well, there are actions and reactions, if you close the border you must react to some other things, you must expect certain reactions, some of us go to the stores now we can’t find the goods we want, which is good Nigeria has become the heaviest consumer I know in the world, so if they close the border let’s go and deal with what we have in our country. If the Ghanaians are closing their shops, let them come back home, let’s build this country. We must not be blackmailed by anybody, it’s like saying, okay, they close their border, we close our shops, if they feel they can do it better through that way, let them do it, they are our closest friend, Ghana is like a brother state to us and if they chose to react that way, then good luck to them.
But is it not an irony that goods that are contraband still find their way into Nigeria and make the country a dumping ground when we have security operatives, Customs, etc, manning the borders?
Don’t forget that our borders are enormous and the Customs officers are overwhelmed, you know Nigerians are very smart people, you close one route they open another, I sometimes feel sorry for the Customs officers, they are suffering for us, trying to protect us, but the more they suffer the more we create problems for them.
Nigerians will do anything to get rich so you don’t blame the officers in most cases, they won’t kill themselves. If they are colluding with them that is their own conscience, but I will say that even in America smuggling is still practiced, there’s no country that doesn’t have smugglers, but our press people make it as if Nigeria is the worst country in the world, actually, Nigeria is the best country in the world. We must leave Nigeria alone, let the president try and in 2023 anybody who thinks he can do it better should go and try and win the ticket. Is that not true? It is cheap to criticize, but I can tell you doing the job is not an easy one.
You just mentioned 2023 and that brings to focus the race for the presidency and the controversy surrounding the zone the slot should go to whether to remain in the North or shift to the Southeast?
Well, I think the best person in the country should be our president, I don’t like looking North, South, Southeast, South-North, etc, I am not an apostle of zoning at all. If a person rules well, respects the law and recognizes that we are all Nigerians, why should you want him or her to be Ogoni, Kaduna, Calabar or Igbo?
But how will that best candidate emerge?
Let it emerge like in America they don’t zone it. So, if you want to run, if you believe you can run against President Trump, you come out and run if you think you can do his job better, so the same should apply here in Nigeria. If a Northerner believes that he can do better than Buhari and we all know the person’s antecedents, that is what we should be looking at, the person who will recognise an Igbo man as the same as an Hausa man, the same as a Yoruba man and vice versa, that is the person we should go for, it is the person I want. I really don’t care about this zoning thing.
But do you think that Nigeria has reached that level of political maturity and education like they have in the United States you are talking about, against the backdrop of massive rigging?
The person can still emerge with our system if the INEC is properly positioned; we have not gotten our electoral umpire in good standing. When Moshood Abiola won, did they say it is because he is a Yoruba man? Was it not a Muslim-Muslim ticket and did Nigerians not vote for them? Nobody zoned any power to the Southwest, but Abiola was a good man and the people voted for him across the country. So, they should let this thing flow, let’s have an election where zoning is canceled, let the best people, from clearing them to their running for the election prevail and I can assure you we will get a good man, one that is not tribal, not corrupt, one that recognizes everybody as Nigerians.
In your state Ebonyi, there is this charter of equity although without legal backing, but they follow it. Does it mean you may not support it going by your opinion about zoning?
Well, it’s a convention, is it law? It’s not the law, if I find the best person in Ebonyi to come from an area they feel it’s not going to, instead of wasting that person waiting for his turn for his zone, he can become much older then to run for that kind of office, it’s better we use the person. But I have never understood zoning very well, I think it is a very dangerous concept, when you are going for an election you say you zoned it to a particular place, maybe at that time that zone doesn’t have a real good candidate who can do the needed job for the country or the state. I have a very big question mark on zoning. I don’t care about zoning, I don’t care who becomes the president, I care that the person that becomes the president sees Nigeria as his zone. If we get a good president that makes all of us comfortable, that makes everybody feel like a Nigerian, I don’t care where he comes from and I mean it.
Do we have such persons who will take Nigeria as their constituency?
I can do it and I am sure you have many like me in Nigeria who can, who have like minds, but it is only when those so-called power brokers wade in that we have a problem. So, let’s try something new in Nigeria, let us jettison the old ways and go for something new. Let’s say that the next election should be free and fair for people from any state whatsoever.
The argument is that there is no part of this country, no zone without a qualified candidate…?
(Cuts in) So bring out those people who are qualified from North, South, East, West, let them compete. That is what I am saying. If every state has somebody who is qualified then bring them all to the centre and we look at them and cast our vote. That is not difficult for people to understand, don’t close the door for anybody who is qualified to compete.
So, now that Ndigbo is saying it is 2023 or fight to finish…?
(Cuts in) Ndigbo must not become a beggar, we cannot be beggarly to say it’s our turn, please give us, no. Nobody gives you power, you take it, power is not given, power is taken. Ndigbo should not be crying for anybody to give them power. Ndigbo should decide to unite, get a strong candidate, let other people bring their strong candidates, let us go and do the battle.
What is your greatest worry today about Nigeria?
My fear is for the future generation, I don’t know how they will look at us when they finally take over the country and things are not working because we didn’t make them work when we should have made them work.
How will you assess development in your state, Ebonyi?
Well, governance in my state, we have had three executive governors, the one we have now, Umahi is the third one, they have their different styles, their performances, so the one there now, has his style, he is building brick and mortars everywhere and he is looking at development very seriously, I hope he is also doing the best for the state by my assessment he is a good governor if he doesn’t make any serious mistake between now and the end of his tenure I will mark him good.